A problem with pacifism...
Why do pacifist organizations, particularly "ECAPC" tend to thrive in the most powerful nations?
How come they spend their time protesting the most powerful nations, especially the U.S., where their freedoms are protected?
Why do they refuse to acknowledge history: Reagan's military build up bankrupted the Soviet Union, bringing about the colaspe of communism?
Speaking of history, why do they protest Israel? Don't they know the Palestinians have been blowing themselves up since they learned how to fasten explosives to their bodies? Since the 1880's!
Why do they trash the soldiers who had to kill people to rescue their 'peacemaker teams' from the hands of terrorist?
And how about when Jesus trashed the money changers and in Luke 22 told the disciples get a sword if they didn't have one?
I have been reading a lot about building church community lately, and find myself intrigued by the community life of the Anabaptist, the Mennonites, and such groups. I appreciate their commitment to simplicity and service. Their passion for Christ encourages me to dig deeper. But the stumbling block for me is that there seems to be a great hypocrisy at work here.
Isn't it hypocritical to rally against a government and nation that by it's might and willingness to go to war protects their religious freedom and their right to protest?
Isn't it hypcritical to stand with the Islamo-Fascist who torture and kill their own people and when the heat get on they run back to the safety of the powerful nations that allow them to exist?
Isn't it hypocritical that many of these groups came to the United States because they would have have freedom to practice their faith here, then they spend their time trying to bring us down?
It's kind of like moving next to a hog farm then complaining about the smell.
Violence and Peace live in tension to one and other. Pacifism, true pacifism, will only work when everyone is a pacifist. In this world, we need the people who are willing to go out and be violent in order to maintain and pave a way for peace. Every Soldiers dream is to come home to a peaceful place.
Pacifism
How come they spend their time protesting the most powerful nations, especially the U.S., where their freedoms are protected?
Why do they refuse to acknowledge history: Reagan's military build up bankrupted the Soviet Union, bringing about the colaspe of communism?
Speaking of history, why do they protest Israel? Don't they know the Palestinians have been blowing themselves up since they learned how to fasten explosives to their bodies? Since the 1880's!
Why do they trash the soldiers who had to kill people to rescue their 'peacemaker teams' from the hands of terrorist?
And how about when Jesus trashed the money changers and in Luke 22 told the disciples get a sword if they didn't have one?
I have been reading a lot about building church community lately, and find myself intrigued by the community life of the Anabaptist, the Mennonites, and such groups. I appreciate their commitment to simplicity and service. Their passion for Christ encourages me to dig deeper. But the stumbling block for me is that there seems to be a great hypocrisy at work here.
Isn't it hypocritical to rally against a government and nation that by it's might and willingness to go to war protects their religious freedom and their right to protest?
Isn't it hypcritical to stand with the Islamo-Fascist who torture and kill their own people and when the heat get on they run back to the safety of the powerful nations that allow them to exist?
Isn't it hypocritical that many of these groups came to the United States because they would have have freedom to practice their faith here, then they spend their time trying to bring us down?
It's kind of like moving next to a hog farm then complaining about the smell.
Violence and Peace live in tension to one and other. Pacifism, true pacifism, will only work when everyone is a pacifist. In this world, we need the people who are willing to go out and be violent in order to maintain and pave a way for peace. Every Soldiers dream is to come home to a peaceful place.
Pacifism
Posted by Surly Dave on
Tuesday, July 11, 2006
"Pacifism is not a value. It is the absense of all values."
Put another way...If there is not one value you believe is worth fighting for, then you believe in nothing.
Yes, Liberalism is the epitome of hypocracy. I grew up where "do as I say- not as I do" was mainstream. I recognized that in Liberalism from day one.
Nope. Dave, if you were a missionary in China, and the government of China had laws that protected you (which it does), would you lose the right to work against China's goals if they were at odds with your missionary responsibilities?
Isn't it hypcritical to stand with the Islamo-Fascist who torture and kill their own people and when the heat get on they run back to the safety of the powerful nations that allow them to exist?
Yes. But be careful not to lump pacifists with CHRISTIAN pacifists. Christian pacifism is a different sort of animal. The reason anabaptists are pacifists are because they believe that Cross is the only tool of vengenance allowed. For an anabaptist to take a life is to execute judgement in a way that they believe Christ no longer allows. A good anabaptist would never side against the U.S. and with the terrorists. They would oppose violence wherever they find it.
Isn't it hypocritical that many of these groups came to the United States because they would have have freedom to practice their faith here, then they spend their time trying to bring us down?
Yes. Again, most anabaptists aren't trying to bring the US down. They are trying to restrain and stand against injustice and violence where they find it.
Here's a good article about Christian pacifism.
If the anabaptist of tradition stays out of politics (per our ealier conversation), they should drop their links to these people. I'd be happy to remove anabaptist from my list of left wing wackos if they were to make more of a point of not being political;).
But I have a question that you might be able to answer: Would an anabaptist approve of violence if it were to stop even a greater wrong doing. Take Lil' Kim Jil Ill (or whatever) of North Korea: If we knew he was going to launch a missle into Japan (or Hawaii, or Alaska, or the heartland) and kill a bunch of folkes, or for that matter, just being the evil little despot that he is, and we had the chance to take him out, thus freeing his people, or at least giving them a chance, how does the pacifist play it? Do we do it, or do we just let more people die? Is the use of violence an acceptable alternative to more violence?
Here's how I look at it in the current situation with Iraq: it makes sense for the US to fight in Iraq, since it is in America's best interests. But I don't really think of myself as owing my ultimate allegiance to America. I don't make the pledge becuase I cannot serve both the US and God, I can only really pledge full allegiance for only one Lord. So while it makes sense for the US to fight in Iraq, I am really not interested in the affairs of nations. I am interested in the Kingdom of God, which is NEVER advanced through violence. Since I don't think Jesus calls us to kill in his name, why would I ever kill? Let America fight with Iraq, but I will always serve the Kingdom. I, personally affirm those Christian Peace Makers that have gone into Iraq to practice peace. I don't think they are all America haters. The Christian peace makers that I know (and I know a few) would stand against anyone doing violence to any one else and then tell them of the love of Jesus Christ. While I have no doubt that some folks become peace makers with a left-wing agenda, that isn't supposed to be the idea.
I hope you don't think that I'm a wacko for saying all of this. I can imagine that you might even be shaking your head at me as you read this Dave. But all of my convictions come out of a desire to live out the Sermon on the Mount in a radical way, not out of a sense of particular hatred for America. America is by no means more evil than other nations. It may be held to a higher standard, because of its power, but it is generally a moral nation.
I don't think your wacko (at least not totally:)). But some of your friends are. In a sense, you suffer from guilt by association.
You offer up one of the most well thought out and best explained cases for pacifism that I have heard. I just happen to disagree with you on some points.
If America had gone to war to advance the Kingdom of God, I would be opposed to that. That is the Churches job.
If we went to war to liberate an oppressed people and bring them freedom, then that is good. If we go and take out dictators and thugs who have nukes: I'm all for it. These things help secure the peace and ultimately protect the freedom here at home.
As far as the Christian Peace Makers go, why aren't they here in North Minneapolis standing between gangs and drug dealers? Let's see their teams flood the streets here instead of getting in the way of liberaters in Iraq or defenders in Israel. I know the answer I have is cynical, but I believe it isn't 'sexy' enough. It doesn't garner the spot light the way a trip to the middle-east does.
But I will concede that there are people with pure hearts and no other agenda than to show the love of Jesus involved in the Peace Churches and Christian pacifist movements. It's to bad such groups have tossed their lots in with some real hard core leftist, thus tainting the movement.
However, when it's someone who is just hopping on the politically correct band wagon or "My dad shot a deer when I was three and it was, like, just totally gross", I could care less.
See the difference? It's in what motivates them. Unfortunatly, I see more politics in the peace churchs than conviction.
Yes, I agree that the church should fight God's causes, not politicians using religion as a means for power.
I think fighting just to fight or to make money and fighting to make a difference is what a lot of believers get confused about.
I am studying 1st and 2nd Samuel on Christian Connect- http://www.ChristianConnect.com . God will fight when it is necessary- just like David fought Goliath. But I am amazed that David, the most valuable fighter in Israel, never used violence for evil means when Saul was pursuing him for his life. David let Saul live time and time again even though Saul should have been killed.